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Thread: a question about the Us legal system regarding "Lifers"

  1. #41
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    Kirsten's: Cheerful

    Default Re: a question about the Us legal system regarding "Lifers"

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarchery View Post
    People go through this boot camp style environment in the military too, and soldiers tend to come out of the experience without turning into criminals.
    No. But a noticeable number of veterans DO come home with PTSD, psychosomatic pain of all kinds (for which pharma has a lot of pain killers, which can cause a few people to become drug addicts) and other stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarchery View Post
    Do Germany and all the other European countries have some more polite class of criminals?
    On the average Germany has (with a population of 83.5 million) 5 sexual motivated murder cases per year.
    We have had three school shootings nationwide in 15 years, as far as I know.
    We have much less crimes with weapons because it is much harder to get one.
    Our recidisvism rate is lower and we have between 1000 - 1500 deaths of drug addicts per annum.
    And we have 800 000 homeless persons nationwide, given the 83.5 million population above.
    So, what do you want?
    Could not be all wrong, I suppose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarchery View Post
    Do they just not shoot up an entire block of people in a drive-by just to get at one target?
    No, they don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarchery View Post
    Do they not murder people for a pair of shoes or for some paltry sum of money?
    Rarely. Some will be trying to play the "grandchild trick" on elders, but most people are warned by now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarchery View Post
    Do they not form gangs where members are obligated to do what more senior members demand?
    In bigger cities there are certain parts of it where gang life is happening, yes. But it's not common.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarchery View Post
    Do their gangs just order ex-members to be murdered just because that member quit?
    In the mafia or a few rocker's/bikers gangs, yes. But mostly not, no.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarchery View Post
    Can a German gang member say "No, I'd rather not go beat that Latino within an inch of his life".
    We haven't that much of ethnical conflicts here. They do exist, yes, and there are people well integrated in society and others who're not.
    But hey, our population grew by 3.5 million in the last 6 years (deaths and people who moved out of the country already taken out) and the social system did not collapse, the schools work, the health system is working (though it has its problems), school's are still there and the criminal rate did not explode.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarchery View Post
    This cry of "prisons aren't rehabilitating people!" is a strawman. When did that become the goal?
    After WW 2 and even more after the "hot autumn" of 1977. It has ever been our goal here since.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarchery View Post
    I heard Nebraska was making a big push toward rehabilitation in their prisons, but the magical booth where you put a person in, press 4 buttons, and that person comes out completely rehabilitated was broken so they cancelled it.
    Nobody said it would be easy. Nobody said there would be a 100% guarantee. But hey, I really rather live here without all theyse weapons a be and feel relatively safe and secure, than having to be in a country, where distrust and feeling threatened seem to be a common attitude. No, thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarchery View Post
    Rehabilitation is change, and the person has to want to change.
    Many people do, if they are shown how. Not all, sure, but many do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarchery View Post
    And more importantly, a person has to put the effort into their rehabilitation.
    Yeah, sure. But who of the developed countries (despite the US) would come to the "glorious" conclusion of building "halfway houses" for former inmates?
    Of course a concept like this will NOT work out. But who cares? What about looking at how others deal with it? Oh, I forgot, America is so great that it is beyond that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarchery View Post
    If a drug addicted prostitute is sent to jail, then released into a drug treatment program to get her off the drugs and off the street, that's rehabilitation in action.
    If a drug addict is on rehab here, they are in a building where they can not run away. And for at least the first 2 weeks they are under 24 hours of surveillance. 24/7. I have not seen many run away, at least not during that fortnight period.

  2. #42
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    Default Re: a question about the Us legal system regarding "Lifers"

    Kirsten, you have given multiple reasons why your ideas on prison reform simply won't work for the United States. You have literally said that Germany lacks several classes of crime that are prevalent in the United States. This is like going to a country with poor access to clean water and asking "What's wrong with you people? Why do you have so much cholera, typhoid, and guinea worm disease?"

    And you are way off the mark with your analogy of the military. Those cases of PTSD and other mental disorders came from the stress of being in a war zone. Not boot camp. I work with a lot of active duty and retired Marines who are completely normal, stable people.

  3. #43
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    Default Re: a question about the Us legal system regarding "Lifers"

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarchery View Post
    Do Germany and all the other European countries have some more polite class of criminals? Do they just not shoot up an entire block of people in a drive-by just to get at one target?
    No Europe in general does not have drive by killings. They do happen but they are extremely rare, mainly due to the fact that guns are controlled & automatic & semi automatic guns are extremely tightly controlled. So where drive by shootings do occur they are normally only a few shots.
    Even terrorist have had to resort to driving trucks into crowds to achieve a similar effect here.
    Every person has their own story.

  4. #44
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    Default Re: a question about the Us legal system regarding "Lifers"

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarchery View Post
    This is like going to a country with poor access to clean water and asking "What's wrong with you people? Why do you have so much cholera, typhoid, and guinea worm disease?"
    Zach, this would not be the question I asked. My question would be: "Hey, guys, when are you starting to give clean water circuits to your population? If you needed some help, we'd be glad to assist you, as we have not forgotten how your Marshall plan helped us when we needed it most." If you need a social Marshall plan now, then go for it. Look over the fences. It's all there - in various countries. Pick the best of each - and DO sth.
    I've always liked the hands-on attitude many Americans seemed to perform. You got the money, you got the info, you got the people, so why don't you act on it?

    And I did neither mean to say that each and every veteran gets PTSD (that's rubbish), nor that boot camp causes it.
    But honestly, I don't see how military strategies solve social problems, really not.
    And the more I read and see the more I get the impression that prison is also declared/made a warzone.
    What a pity for a proud nation to become like this. You harbored and havened so many dreams... You were dream and ideal to so many.
    Don't give up on this completely.
    If you declare your prisons as war zones, this will be a war you cannot win.
    Kirsten

  5. #45
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    Default Re: a question about the Us legal system regarding "Lifers"

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirsten View Post
    Not I can not imagine raping and killing someone - and yes, I do know that sociopaths exist.
    But still, no one is born that way.
    There is not one child being born to become a serial killer later on.
    There are damages first - to their brains, to their hearts, to their souls or to their bodies.
    There are warning signs, yes, but it doesn't happen overnight.
    I've looked up that Whitaker case (the "murder by family" guy, he's gonna be executed later this month, as far as I know), and I listened closely to some of the statements he made. This one is a totally disconnected guy, regardless of family background or whatever.
    And sorry for disagreeing, but, really: The world and human nature is much more complex than most people perceive or can even imagine it to be.
    I agree with you that most sociopaths are not born that way --- they are made. However, once made, the damage is done permanently. Yes, the sociopath was once a helpless baby being traumatized by violent and neglectful caregivers. But he or she is not that helpless baby anymore -- and never will be again. There truly is no way to undo that. A baby who fails to bond with a caregiver in the first year of life -- through no fault of his or her own -- will grow up, most likely, unable to connect to the basic repertoire of human emotions. It does not matter what you do with them later in life. It's a developmental failure so early and so fundamental that it cannot be remedied. That is the person that will, in the words of Tommy Sells (a serial killer of children), be an embodiment of hatred. Sells was sitting on death row, facing execution, describing slashing little girls' throats, affirming that looking into his eyes was looking into hatred.

    Perhaps your empathic sense (developed, I imagine, from a good-enough, warm family environment in your home) is still yearning to heal Tommy's wounds. And perhaps every part of your idealistic self stands in stark rebellion against what I am saying -- especially that definitive 'he can't be cured' part. I know it's hard when seeing him as a traumatized baby. But he got to grow up and do unspeakable suffering to innocents -- little people of every age group who never got a chance to grow up and spread some of their more developed empathy. So what is to be done then?

    My statement that we are a troubled, violent species stands. I never said we don't have other potentials. But really, any cursory look at the state of our world corroborates the fact that we are deeply troubled, collectively. I could post about a million links to all manner of human depravity, but I'm sure you can do that on your own.

    Yes, of course beauty -- and redemption --abound. But that is not the theme of this thread. Zarchery, if I understand him, is simply pointing out that there sometimes are no alternatives to what others decry as the inhumanity of the U.S. penal system.
    Last edited by Metaxu; 02-07-2018 at 09:59 PM.

  6. #46
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    peanut2's: Sweet Tooth

    Default Re: a question about the Us legal system regarding "Lifers"

    Charles Manson is one example, a monster created, not born evil.
    Get yours at Webfetti.com



    A Government Big Enough To Give You All You Want. Is Strong Enough To Take Everything You Have..

    Thomas Jefferson.

  7. #47
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    Default Re: a question about the Us legal system regarding "Lifers"

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirsten View Post
    Hi everyone,
    not being familiar with the US system, I have no idea about 1st, 2nd and 3rd degree things.


    Kirsten
    1st,2nd,3rd,degree for murder means.

    If the DP was an eye for an eye mentality, we would not have the different degrees of murder. 1st degree murder qualifies for mostly LWOP or the DP. If it were an eye for an eye mentality, we would rape rapist for one example.

    2nd to third degree murder, it could be 25 yrs to only 5 yrs.
    Get yours at Webfetti.com



    A Government Big Enough To Give You All You Want. Is Strong Enough To Take Everything You Have..

    Thomas Jefferson.

  8. #48
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    Default Re: a question about the Us legal system regarding "Lifers"

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaxu View Post
    I agree with you that most sociopaths are not born that way --- they are made. However, once made, the damage is done permanently.
    Yes, I agree with you on that one. But not most of the people in prison are sociopaths. Some are, true, but psychologically spoken the definitions are quite clear - and they are narrow. So no one should make the mistake of using the term inflationary, just because someone is in prison.


    Quote Originally Posted by Metaxu View Post
    Yes, the sociopath was once a helpless baby being traumatized by violent and neglectful caregivers. But he or she is not that helpless baby anymore -- and never will be again. There truly is no way to undo that. A baby who fails to bond with a caregiver in the first year of life -- through no fault of his or her own -- will grow up, most likely, unable to connect to the basic repertoire of human emotions. It does not matter what you do with them later in life. It's a developmental failure so early and so fundamental that it cannot be remedied. That is the person that will, in the words of Tommy Sells (a serial killer of children), be an embodiment of hatred. Sells was sitting on death row, facing execution, describing slashing little girls' throats, affirming that looking into his eyes was looking into hatred.
    I have never claimed - and will never do - that these extremes do not happen. I never claimed rehabilitation will work for everyone- you'll never and nowhere find a statement like that from me. Because I made none and never will.
    But what you are doing here - and what some ppl tend to do easily, it seems - is : taking extremes and making them a base line as if they (the extremes) were the norm. Sociopathy and narcisstic disorders have never been the norm, are not the norm and will never be the norm. Neither in- nor outside of prison, even though likely the percentages of it inside are higher than on the outside. Stop taking the extremes and making generalizations from there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaxu View Post
    Perhaps your empathic sense (developed, I imagine, from a good-enough, warm family environment in your home) is still yearning to heal Tommy's wounds.
    Even if so, I would keep him in for life- without parole. But I would neither give him a lethal injection, nor assume that every inmate is a potential "Tommy".
    I'm not saying: "Hey, they're all angels." But I am saying that many criminal cases go back to social issues. And these will ultimately not be addressed properly (let alone resolved) by military strategies. That's not what the military is about.
    Many of these problems stem from drug abuse and from free weapon's access. The military will not solve this.
    a few yeaes ago there was a young boy here in Germany, 16 or so, shooting around in his school, killing a few, fleeing, killing another while on flight and ultimately shooting himself when police tried to arrest him.
    Now, what do you think, who got to stand before the court later on? His father, because he had not taken care of the boy being unable to get access to the weapon.
    The father had a weapon's card, all totally legal and ok. Approved, examined, no harm done with it ever. But he did not keep the weapon in a safe in a way that the boy could not have access to it, so that's his fault and he got a trial for that. And in many people's opinion from the public rightly so.
    If you want to keep crime rates with weapons down, you have to control the possesion, distribution and use strictly. And it makes communities safer.
    We are not more peaceful or less violent here, but there are some rules to be given - and weapon control surely is one of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaxu View Post
    And perhaps every part of your idealistic self stands in stark rebellion against what I am saying -- especially that definitive 'he can't be cured' part.
    It may be to your surprise, but no. See above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaxu View Post
    My statement that we are a troubled, violent species stands. I never said we don't have other potentials. But really, any cursory look at the state of our world corroborates the fact that we are deeply troubled, collectively. I could post about a million links to all manner of human depravity, but I'm sure you can do that on your own.
    Yeah, sure. But the last word on human species will not be one of cruelty, no. It will be one of evolution, hope and change.
    There will never be 100% - we will never live in Eden. And there will always be the "Tommys" you talk about.
    But the world and the prisons are not just occupied by the "Tommy" like.
    Don't let a cruel, but loud minority dominate how we look at the the rest.

  9. #49
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    Default Re: a question about the Us legal system regarding "Lifers"

    @peanut2: thanks for helping me out with the degrees and explaining it to me. I found it really confusing.

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