Not wanting to hyjack the Ellis-Polunsky thread at all, but reading some of the stuff and seeing comments elsewhere around the web, I think there are several urban myths that are strongly associated with the death penalty and death row.

Might be useful to explore them here?

The first that sticks out to me as being important, particularly to those of us in Europe who do not have the death penalty by law, is what crimes are eligible for the death penalty. I get the very strong impression that many Europeans believe that murder alone can result in the DP. This is not the case. Capitol murder is a murder that is committed along with another crime. The vast majority of murderers do not end up on DR. Those offenders who comit more than one murder, or who comit another crime (such as robbery) at the same time or as a continuous set of acts, can be tried for the death penalty.

I think this is an important distinction to make, simply because there are those murders that are committed in the heat of the moment. Yes they can sometimes be put down to poor judgement or being in the wrong place at the wrong time. But those who are convicted and sentenced to death have been found guilty of multiple crimes including at least one murder in the same act.

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I guess you want to say that one must commit multiple heinous crimes to can get the DP. This might be the case in America but the DP is allowed in much more other countries. At the end of the day plays it no role for what you can get the DP because someone has to decide that your life is not worth to live. Therefore a red line must be exceeded because there is no ethical justification to decide whose life is worth to live and whose not. That´s a difference between animals and humans. All humans are equal, no matter whether they are black or blue, white or pink, no matter what they think or do, they stay humans. It´s easy to comprehend when one strongly dislikes devious individuals, when victims relatives hate an individual who brought loss and pain to the family, when the public hate (for instance) a child predator or something like this. They don´t have to apologize for their natural feelings, they are comprehensible. The point is that those feeling should not be the guideline for a judicial system. The people have the right to live in safety and therefore we have executives like police, prosecutors and courts. That aim is reached when a dangerous offender is captured and brought behind bars. No reason to kill him.
There is only one situation when deadly violence should be allowed for executives, this is when a killing spree happens and when there is a high danger for the public. When police uses in extremely dangerous situations the final rescue shot to protect other humans life, this could be justified. The decision therefore has to be made very carefully and responsibly. It should be the last of all capabilities.

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Capital cases require that the murder occurs during the commission of, furtherance of or immediate flight from the coinciding felony. Do not quote me because that is not exactly how it is in the legal stuff, but that is the basics of it.

There are some neat little myths that get attached to all of this, however, like the people sentenced to death have horrible criminal pasts. Supposedly, violent felonies are used to enhance a murder charge to death penalty status. And yes, most have a record, but if you check not all of them are violent enough to be considered the monsters that they are proclaimed once they are convicted.

Eldon's record if glanced at can be declared God awful, but again that is without knowing the details. Even the so-called violent convictions are not what they seem and a trespass charge actually used in the process is a nonviolent offense. However, it was the charge chosen by the prosecution because the other convictions against Eldon truly are not what they seem and do not in any way reflect a violent enough nature to justify putting him to death. Ray Krone was a vet with no felony past but went to the row.

As for the felony that occurs with the murder. Eldon was found guilty of attempted aggravated robbery, but the lead detective says on the stand at another proceeding that there was "no demand" made for anything that a fight just broke out. Plus, though everything that you find that the state says about the case relates back to a supposedly stolen twelve pack of beer, the incident with the beer occurred at a completely separate time period and could not legally be used to establish a capital murder charge. Yet, it seems to sound good anyway.

These laws can be be bent and twisted badly. The same prosecutor that convicted Eldon, ten years later, sentenced a 19 year old Mexican National under "the felony murder rule" (allowing the co-defendants to face capital charges as well), when the kid had fled the scene completely and had left his gun in the car that he ran from. I found this case accidentally and just began reading the first court opinion because of the prosecutor. I could not believe that what I found proved that this prosecutor was even worse than I believed.

The felony murder rule is supposed to include that the co-defendant is participating in the underlying felony and present when the murder occurs. However, more than one witness placed the boy far out of sight of the scene before the first shot was fired and the felony that the prosecutor used was a trumped up allegation that the boys in the car were dealing drugs. He even managed to uphold his conviction after the jury determined that the amount of drugs in the car was below the threshold or minimum required to charge someone with distribution and/or selling narcotics. All the prosecution was disallowed by the judge was his request that a 19 year old boy who only wanted to avoid deportation, but obviously intended to kill no one to avoid even that be put to death. If he had any intention of shooting, he for some reason left his gun under the seat when he fled. Still, this kid will die in prison, when the shooter, the other boys with them and witnesses to the crime all testified that the he was just trying to run.

There are too many myths and endless examples of the law bent to allow conviction. When the death penalty was stopped in the 70's it was because the High Court felt that it was handed down "arbitrarily" and was not simply taking the lives of "the worst of the worst" as it is actually intended to do. As the court saw too often the worst served prison time and far less heinous killers died at the hands of the executioner. One would think that changes were actually made for it to be reinstated, but the states and the courts under political pressure all merely developed a new set of tricks to go right back to the same game. Today, the death penalty mainly serves as a tool by which politicians gain votes and this is its most redeeming feature.

It does not kill the worst among us, does not deter crime, does not save tax-dollars, and certainly does demonstrate that we are the just and humane nation that we proclaim ourselves to be.

I still even though against the DP, believe in the majority of cases it take's alot to get there.

Misdemernors, are not considered felony charges, in a court of law there normally has to be atleast two past felony convictions, then the attempt to rob, assualt a person while in the process of robbing that makes it aggravated robbery by beating them, if that ends in death the charges are numerous, which then qualifies for the DP. I know the system is flawed and greed and politics plays a role. At the end of it all it does take alot to get a person to DR. Past felonys cannot be made up or produced.

It's possible too, to have a victim lying down and gently pour gas on them while out cold or stunned, and then make a trail of gas from the victim and light that trail with a lighter, and have no smell of gas on you except possibly your hands only. Depending on the place of gas doused with, only that part will burn. (speaking of Fire) from another day past.

It does come down to the number of felony charges, added to a current charges to all apply. That is why I am confused on juveniles getting LWOP or the DP and had no prior offenses??????

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Yes Andreas, you are right, I was only speaking with reference to the USA. But as that is where most of the focus tends to be for Europeans except when the occasional European national is in danger of being killed for drug trafficking etc in the Far East and Asia, that was my focus too.

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Sunray It is true that a lot of people even here in the US think any homicide will get you the death penalty . . That is not true . There are a number acts that could be called homicide . There are many mitigating and aggravating circumstances . This is what makes tease kinds of cases very complex .


Any thing from involuntary manslaughter . Where you A did not intend ot take a life B where not committing a felony . But are considered criminally responsible . And Example would be Drive at a excessive rate of speed and causing a accident that results in a death . Because of the reckless behavior say of driving 100 MPH in a 35 mph zone . As an example that is not related to any case . . Each state has it's own version of criminal laws and how they are prosecuted .
There is manslaughter . Sometimes similar to voluntary manslaughter . An example once again not any case Where you did something such as get into a fight and the person dies .

Even during the commission of a felony a and a death results it is not always a capitol case . A person could committed robbery and shoot some one . They had no intention of doing os the weapon was fro show . Some states call it second degree homicide . Because there was not a intent to commit murder .

Another misconception is when a person hires out and plans a murder they are not as guilty as the person committing it . Using the argument the person committing the homicide could have backed out . What the state will say is with out the plan and person paying for murder there would not be one . Often the person planning and paying for the murder will receive the hasher punishment .
Murder for hire is a capitol offense in all 50 states and in federal territories or jurisdiction . . It will usually result in a LWOP sentence in many states that do not have a DP .

Both prosecution and defense will look at events leading up to the commission of a homicide .
The state to determine how to charge the defense for mitigating factors along with other issues depending on charges filed and state .

Also events prior to a homicide can help determine intent to commit a homicide .It also helps to determine the aggravating or mitigating factors


There are things that will cause the death penalty to be sought aggravating factors can be children under a certain age intentionally killed in TX it is 6 years of age . Taking the life of a cop .or federal employee during the commission of a felony and that person is “on duty” . Taking the life emergency responder of any sort if they are responding to a emergency . This can include search and rescue volunteers .

A particularly cruel an heinous s crime and acts of depravity . Such as rape and murder .Setting a person on fire alive .


Ala Mark Dean Schwab

Her is a case summary of that evil monster .

http://www.floridacapitalcases.state...tes/111129.doc

her is a Affirmation of Denial of Writ of Habeas Corpus , In fact Schawbs prior bad acts (A legal term) are included in this .

http://www.ca11.uscourts.gov/opinions/ops/200514253.pdf

Schwab was executed on July 1st 2008 .

another is Tony Roach Who Was executed in TX on September 5th 2007 . He robbed a woman in her home strangled her raped the corpse and set it on fire !

Offender Information - Tony Roach

These case all public record are tow examples of heinous acts previous s violent felonies and depravity as well as intent to commit a homicide .


There are also factors a person may not be executed included mental retardation called a Atkins claim after the case Atkins Vs Virginia .

ATKINS V. VIRGINIA


. Legal and clinical Insanity , In 2005 the US Supreme court found it unconstitutional to execute Juveniles the case Roper V s Simmons .

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/oral_a...pts/03-633.pdf


Mental illness a bit of back ground on this .

http://www.abanet.org/crimjust/cjmag...ealthcases.pdf


Capitol cases are very complex with many legal rules and procedures . Each case is unique. Not all result in the death penalty the sentence can be Life With Parole LWOP or Death .

There are many types of appeals involved .

Once you are at the federal level of appeals the appeals attorneys are some of th every best in the world bar none . .If any one can find a flaw in the prosecution arguments they and their legal team can . .
When a writ is sent to a court a judge does not read it right way . A court clerk ( all at the Federal level. come from from top flight law schools) reviews it they then either seek others help or pass it along to a judge who will read it and the law clerks notes. They will discuss it often thy do find reason ot hear the appeal . It is that many are filed some valid some not a . Some are flawed and sent back nto be rewritten on different grounds . Each case is different each writ is different .
It is notsoem sort of dart game it is very somber serious matter . .
this is the very abridged version

To say it is all some sham is not fair . To say all attorneys are no good is not right most work very hard for their clients just because they do not always win does not mean they are not any good . It means that in that case the court decided against them that time . They defend Constitution as well as their clients . The same is true for prosecutors
Judges are human not robots and can make a mistake . that is why we have the system we do .

Prosecutor specially in states that elect them are more inclined play dirty than appointed ones . Some ADA s might or might not play dirty but many can only go by what the cops give them some cops are plain incompetent some get tunnel vision some are dirty it is not either or a or a vast national conspiracy .

Our Justice system not perfect . Neither is any other nations ! Mistakes are bound to be ,made . That is what appeals and writs are for . Usually repeated denials are a sign of guilt and there are not any grounds for a legal challenge . Capitol case or not . This is especially true at the federal level

It isa good reason we should not execute not out of compassion for some homicidal monster who committed act of unbelievable brutality and depravity but to insure the innocent are not executed . No more no less .

Some are so evil and will kill if ever given the chance , all they serves is a hard bed 3 meals humane health care and a few hours of exercise out of physical contact with any one. They need a to be kept away from society and other offenders for ever . They need to be restricted or every ones safety few are sent to prison to die .

One part of a death penalty trial is the penalty phase it goes on after a conviction . The nature of the crime is always used against you and heinous and depraved or especially cruel acts are aggravating circumstances among them prior felonies even misdemeanors any thing that you do in life . Can be used in the penalty phase . Good or Bad

any previous act and past history can be used . Both sides use what ever they can to make their case . In appeals or re trail your behavior in prison can be used against you or in your favor .

Peanut That is true now it takes a lot to and on Death Row now juries do not lightly sentence some one death . Now only a jury can hand down a death sentences in some instances a judge can override them rarely do they do so . They leave that for appeals .

It is true you can pour gas on some one and make trail leading to them light it even with long hair and mustache and not get singed or burned .Also a lot of evidence of the fuel such as gasoline evaporates very rapidly . It is hard to test for because of it's chemical make up and how fast it deteriorates . Flare up and flash theory has been discredited . And New science might get a number out of prison who where convicted of arson .

Pouring gasoline on some one and making a trail and lighting it shows intent to kill .Burning some one alive is both morally and legally depraved cruel and epically heinous conscious or not .

Juveniles (any one under 18 ) cannot be sentenced to death. They can get LWOP . There is some controversy over some cases . Some have done things that are every bit as evil as their adult peers on one guy in FL killed boy simply to see what it was like to kill like he buried the victim after killing him . In FL life means life now . No matter who gets it .

Ill see if I can find that case in FL

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If you never have dreams they will never come true.

Somethings are worth fighting for !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2Ngn...eature=related


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Peanut here a recounting is the FL case of a 15 year old boy who rivals any of his adult peers .

The prosecutor in the case stated:

Assistant State Attorney Garry Wood told The Associated Press that he believed that Silva would only kill again if he were released.

"John Silva is getting what he deserved," Wood said.

The jury was given the option of considering charges of manslaughter or second-degree murder in addition to first-degree murder, as in the Tate trial. Silva will be held in a juvenile facility until he turns 21, and then be transferred to an adult facility.

This blog tell a bit about it i might be just on part of the story but it is chilling . Most juveniles come no where near this either .

A excerpt

"Jerry's body was found with his hands tied behind his back and to his ankles with an Ace bandage, the medical type used to support sprained limbs. He was, in fact, "hog-tied." Another Ace bandage and an electrical cord were wound around his throat; the bandage, tightly wrapped four times and the electrical cord tied in a loose slipknot. Even though the cord was loosely tied, the knot pressed hard enough against his skin to leave pressure marks and cause an internal, linear hemorrhage. His pants and underwear were pulled below his buttocks, and his pants pockets had been cut. The autopsy revealed that little Jerry had died of strangulation only hours after going off to ride around the unpaved, sandy, forest-lined streets that he called home. And, despite the appearance of his clothing, there was no evidence that Jerry had been raped.

Inside the septic tank along with Jerry's remains and his bicycle, the investigators uncovered his empty, green backpack, three Pokemon cards, and an odd note, penned in blue ink on lined, notebook paper. The words on the note were badly spelled. It said:

LIST TO PREPAIR JAREY
STRIP TO UNDERWARE +RAP IN TOWER
TIE HANDS
GAG
COVER EYES
No one was able to determine what the phrase "rap in tower" meant unless it was intended to read "wrap in towel." The other lines were ominously clear. "




"Murder in Interlachen" by Judy Dixon

Sad all around , What compels 15 year old to do that is something I cannot explain . Both families are suffering

Yes he is right where he belongs .

__________________
The Constitution is not a Technicality!

Me

If you never have dreams they will never come true.

Somethings are worth fighting for !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2Ngn...eature=related


Money Talks !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgL8qqjOnlg

To be honest, for myself i find that the sentences in the U.S. speak in many cases for a more retrograde than progressive society. I often wonder about the harsh sentences given to offenders for crimes, what we here in europe see as (minor) offenses. You can read often ads on WAP where the convictions are drug-related and the sentences extremely harsh. To be honest, i don´t understand the sense behind this. In relation to DP i can´t recognize any useful sense. A punishment without any logical sense is not necessary in my eyes. Too much power (for instance about life or no life or about human dignity) in the hands of the executives can lead into a disaster (we germans know what it means).

Juveniles can´t get here not more than 15 years because the legislator assumes that the offender should become a second chance, then as an adult.

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I'll post more indepth later on this (at work now ) - But not all dp cases are henious crimes.

Imagine this - two guys enter a store, one guy robs the joint and in the process another shoots the clerk. One gets life and the other DP. It's not henious in the sense of torture, rape, etc... but none the less the one who robbed the store got the dp the one who blasted the guy got life with parole.

Where's the sense in that?

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I've asked my husband to provide me with graphic tales from his days at Polunsky. The good bad and ugly. Once the letters reach me, I will post the tales on my blog.

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