Skye posting the articles about the kid busted by my space prompted a lot of thought. Not about the kid being foolish, because that was pretty self-explanatory. Rather I started considering whether or not execution actually does any good and are we targeting the right people.

Between 2004-2007 there were 16-17 thousand murders and nonnegligent homicides annually in this country. Admittedly, this sounds horrible, but actually it represents a steady decline from the early 80's despite an ever increasing population. And still questionably, incarceration rates continue growing at phenomenal rates with our politicians steadily declaring that without millions more locked away we are not safe to walk our streets.

Now, the facts that struck me after Skye's post -

There are more than 10 thousand deaths due to drunk drivers each year. By March of this year, there had already been 2500 who died in accidents caused by alcohol. Far more people are injured with many seriously disabled and/or physically and mentally marred for life. The problem is so bad that alcohol related deaths account for nearly 40% of all fatalities in a year with someone dying every 40 minutes.

The thing that hit me is that actually there is not a difference of 6 or 7 thousand between these accidents and the murders listed, partly because it is becoming a trend that those charged with DWI at this point can be charged with "willful" or non-negligent homicide. Many prosecutors have proven the word willful can easily be defined to include those who act while drunk. The figure that I am missing is how many of those non-negligent homicides are actually DWI offenses, but someone else may know where to locate it. Obviously, knowing would bring these two numbers even closer together.

Even as they are it is fairly obvious that there is not such as drastic difference. Domestic violence leads to at least 1500 murders annually that are in the vast majority of cases not premeditated and related murder is the leading cause of death among pregnant women, but not likely defined domestic violence. Thus, drunk drivers if not as great a problem as actual cold-blooded killers are very near to the point.

In fact, in many places including Maricopa County in Arizona where Eldon's case is from, there has been a recent push to see those who get drunk and kill sentenced to death. I read of a couple attempts in which the judges said that it legally cannot happen, but do not know if there has to date been such a death sentence or not. I do know that even as many people as there are who drink in this country the idea as the death penalty itself was receiving strong public support and this does seem an interesting topic.

The facts that I recall include that drunk driving is a leading cause of death among teens and teens account for a majority of traffic accidents. Young people between the ages of 16-25 would be the primary target of capital punishment laws that would include DWI. We would be sending thousands of our young people to serve life without or face death each year for acting in stupidity.

If we actually got highway patrols out of the donut shops in Texas and on the roads where they belong, the population here would thin out quick among young and old alike just by a serious crackdown and actual enforcement of existing drunk driving laws. As it is, people with several prior offenses receive a slap on the hand, the county collects a few thousand dollars and they go home on probation.

I do know at least one older guy whose wife had divorced him because of his excessive drinking, who in the last two decades has been stopped at last count eleven times and cited for drunk driving in the state of Texas. Today as far as I know, he remains on the streets after that 11th charge resulted in around 18 months incarceration with most of that spent in county jail. I also for decades now at any given time always know of several on probation who are supposed to be staying sober and attending meetings by the terms of their probation - they get a buddy to sign the paper that says they went to "closed" AA meetings and go about their business, including that they continue drinking and driving.

My ex was among those who stayed on the highway drunk and so wasted he could hardly hold his head up. When, I would try to report him to keep him from killing himself or someone else, I was simply told that they could not go looking for someone on my word alone. In early 2005, he pulled out in front of a blazer close to home. He died instantly and only by the grace of God, the driver that could not avoid broadsiding him walked away with only minor injuries.

My mother's oldest brother pulled out in front of a car and caused a woman to loose her baby in her last month of pregnancy three decades ago and I can recall feeling shame for what he did even then. The first funeral I attended on my own, I was 14, my dead friend who died in a drunk driving accident was 18. One of the sweetest kids in our area at the age of 19 went to a nursing home after he got drunk, went off the highway in his pickup and hit a tree at around 100 MPH. A friend that I adored for 3 decades was guilty of drinking and driving repeatedly - ironically with him sober after taking a woman out one night, they died on the way home when a drunk driver crossed several lanes and hit them head on. There are other stories and I do know the problem that drunk driving is, but I also know the lack of actual effort put into solving the problem.

So, the question becomes:

Is the answer executing those who are alcoholic? Though it is a given that just as drug addicts cannot be deterred, no less than 7 of 10 would not give up their habits even if we were killing people for the offenses, should we declare alcoholics the "worst of worst" and just put them out of their misery, as so many prosecutors would do?

Seriously, I dont think punishment of any kind is a deterrant to the majority of people, because most either dont realise in that moment that they are breaking the law (for whatever reason their conscious is impaired) or they dont think they will get caught.

Alcoholism, along with drug addiction, is societies' problem collectively and should be treated as such, imo. Here in the UK, we are well known as the drunks of Europe, alcohol abuse is a huge problem both medically and for the courts to deal with the after effects. There have been alcoholics for as long as there has been alcohol, but the attitude has changed towards them. It has taken a good 20 years for people in the UK to get their heads round not drinking and driving. Now it is seen as a really bad, irresponsible and anti-social thing to do, but 20 years ago people didn't think twice about having a night out and then driving themselves home. But we have a good network of taxis and public transport, and people seem to have adopted the "designated driver" approach.

In the US, I can see how this would be even more difficult to change attitudes on, mainly because of your reliance on your cars. When I first started travelling to TX, I was amazed that taxis only really existed in the big cities. I dont drive, and I rely heavily on buses and trains here as most Europeans do, but I can't do that when I am over there.

My brother-in-law is an alcoholic. He drinks and drives, gets caught, and nothing happens. Sending him to prison would at least keep him off the streets, but as we all know, it wouldn't do anything to help him kick the addiction especially as he doesn't want to. Putting him to death would be the wrong way to go, he is managing that perfectly well by himself right now. Developing meaningful treatment centres and changing public attitutudes to drunkenness is about the only way I can see of turning the tide.

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My invisibility cloak appears to be working again.

We have treatment centers, the majority are insurance based, but there are centers attached to the hospitals and they can not turn you down regardless of your ability to pay.

In my small suburb of Atlanta we have a hospital with a treatment facility. They will admit you into the facility if you dear you will harm yourself or another person.

If you do not feel you will cause bodily harm they offer a free outpatient treatment program.

If the problem is more intense and requires time in a facility for detox or evaluations, they go through a list of facilities that will meet your needs.

If a person needs immediate attention and makes under a certain amount of money per year, and has no insurance, there is still help through the Medicaid system. The center will get you on the right path to recovery.

I think for some they choose not to acknowledge they have a problem and that is why so many go on for years as addicts. For an addict to successfully complete treatment, and it be a successful treatment they have to first admit they have a problem.

Many addicts, until they have an 'intervention' will never ask for treatment.

My cousin did horrible things to my Aunt while she was on her death bed. He was a meth head. The judge sentenced him for the crimes in which he committed 5 years, plus a term in state rehab of no less than 1 year.

I agree with rehab as a sentence. It is an intervention that some need.

That was in Alabama. There is a similar program here in GA. It is very effective.

I don't think it is an excuse for any crime, as when we as adults choose to drink or do drugs, and we control how little or how much we consume , in excess or not and we know there can be consequences for our actions while under the influence.

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Alcoholism is a serious problem. When you compare the behaviour patterns of the addicts then you can find often that something in their emotional development went wrong in their past, almost started in their childhoood or youth. In other words, you could find almost an emotional background for the addiction, you only must dig deep enough in their souls. That kind of stuff is usually really hard to understand for a common addict (or non-addict), almost they can´t. That´s why they can´t recognize a way out of their situation to solve the problem as a whole. Simply said: not every addict is a psychologist. The more easy way is to practise them to stay away from alcohol or other drugs. Very often fails that method because it can´t solve the original problem(s), the psychological problems become adjourned (with such a method).
Our treatment strategies and programs are likely the same as in UK. I think an addict can´t live without any responsibility for his doing but the question stays what to do when he commits an offense (DUI or something like this). It´s possible for a judge to send him into a treatment facility but for myself i ask what it will change on his original problems. The answer to that question is a bit frightening.

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Do you like that kind of german folk music ?.

Andreas that is the problem most treatment for addictions do not deal with the clients past of why they have reached the level of substance abuseto land them in the criminal justice system . most treatment in the US is 12 step based which is religious program . It works for approximately 2 percent of those who seek help . A 95 % leave with in a year according the two biggest programs AA and NA. To fix the problem we have to figure out why a person is abusing a substance simply saying don't do that any more and sending them of for a month ot rehab usually does not help . It does not address the reasons behind the substance abuse .

In the US at any rate they usual do not getaway with what ever crime they did while intoxicated. Useless they are wealthy and well connected.

Andreas you are right they go back to substance abuse because simply staying away from a substance and not addressing why they abuse solves nothing .

Ther are a lot of new ways to help those who deal with substance abuse . A huge problems is getting them more widely accepted . One is both long their past and lots of testing for other problems learning disabilities . Psychological or psychiatric problems ,abuse those suffered or continue to suffer . why they abuse coupled with cognitive intervention
A study that was done in Toronto Canada nicknamed Rat park is very informative .

Rat Park - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Rat Park: Addiction is a situation, not a disease | Science That Matters

The Mouse Trap: The Rat Park: Addiction and Environmental factors

Thje experiments and studies are revealing .


As fro the Death Penalty to my knowledge no one is on Death Row because of death caused by drunk driving .

The statistics on drunk or intoxicate driving accidents are misleading due to the fact that if any one is involved even if they are not driving is intoxicated in any from or even has a drug in their system even legit one . The accident it is called alcohol or drug related . This artificially grossly inflates the rate .

This is not of this is to say substance abuse in not a problem . It is saying we are not going about dealing with it the right way .

Sunray punishment does not stop them from abusing substance . In many cases it exacerbates it .

No they are not the worse of the worse. They did not rape and kill torture , serial kill , kill in multiday rampage 3 people because they looked Arabic or set a human being on fire alive and other atrocities .

I agree Skye Substance abuse is not an excuse for a crime .
Because some drugs are illegal Substance abuse increases crime .

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The Constitution is not a Technicality!

Me

If you never have dreams they will never come true.

Somethings are worth fighting for !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2Ngn...eature=related


Money Talks !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgL8qqjOnlg

To my knowledge also, no one is on DR due to a death/deaths as the result of driving while intoxicated or under the influence.
Cause and effects,is a far cry from the reason many are sent to DR for.

No one would come close to calling them the worst of the worst. I highly doubt they would ever recieve the DP. Whole different category by far.
They are (alcoholics) the worst of the worst on our highways. No alcoholic I ever knew drove with the intent to kill or let die.
( not a cold blooded killer category)

Yes, both can result in death of those around them and themselves too. That is the only common denominator.

I cannot even come close to comparing the two, the deaths caused by abuse to themselves which effects those around them, verses the mentally criminal minded of horrific crimes.

Yes, DUI is a big problem in the US with our high speed interstates, high speeds period, a majority of the population driving on them, the majority of us own veh's even our teens.
Teens are also known even sober,to have the highest rate of dying and killing others on the roads by veh related accidents, then next come the elderly too. They should go to DR too with that logic....





My drinking and death penalty thoughts...

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I was classified as a 'weekend alcoholic' by the time I was 19. I spent time in rehab (9 months to be exact) and the way the program works is you deal with the obvious issue and what lead you to drink or use drugs. You do receive counseling for the issues that lead you there, be it abuse or a tramatic incident that may have occurred.

Even through the prison systems here, it is a part of the program. One of the wardens for the prison that is the state rehab prison was just in today and he verified that it is indeed a part of the program.

Which is what makes it so successful.

I do not, nor have I ever felt that alcoholism or drug abuse should be a mitigating factor in criminal behavior.

Adults who drink or do drugs control the amount we consume. It is a personal choice to abuse alcohol or drugs, regardless of what pain one needs to hide, and our actions while in that state are ultimately our responsibility.

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Yes it is a personal choice, but once that choice is made, the individual has no way of knowing how the substance will make them react; at that point it is out of their control. Prolonged substance abuse impairs mental functions, it takes away the ability to reason among other things. Someone who suffers a chemically induced psychosis is incapable of behaving in a rational way because the brain starts to function abnormally as parts of it die.

Maybe I should put this under myths and truths, but people can suffer a psychotic episode that only lasts for a few minutes, or an hour, or days, weeks months or years. There is no standard set time for it to last. There are clinical signs that are well documented and describe the pattern, but for those inside it, they lose control of their rational thought. Once the episode has passed, if the individual has not succeeded in killing themselves and has enough brain function left to exist "normally" again, they may not show any further signs or symptoms of having been psychotic, but often they are mortified at what they did while having the episode. It is what many people think of a schizophrenia even though it is not; it is like someone else was doing the things while in the psychotic episode, someone very removed from the individual even though they inhabit the same body. Stress and clinical depression are also triggers to these episodes in some people because the chemicals released into the brain can trigger the same responses and temporary shut downs of inhibitors.

In short, substances and stress can cause a temporary mental illness, which is not chosen by the individual. They may be responsible for introducing the substance to their body, but they are not totally responsible for what happens afterwards. Prosecutors regularly fail to accept the mental illness can be a temporary state of being.

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My invisibility cloak appears to be working again.

@sunray´s wench, you are very right with your description about what can happen inside an addict. I´m confronted with two cases of alcohol addiction in my closer environment, both persons do i know since my childhood. I know that they can have (from time to time) hallucinations, out of their responsibility and their ability to control their awareness. This is what it makes so hard to decide what to do when they would commit an offense in such a situation. Our crime laws offer the possibility to set the addiction as a facilitating circumstance and to send an addict into a rehab program.

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Do you like that kind of german folk music ?.

I believe Sunray's is right on also, in her description of what happens inside of the individual who is addicted.

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